#31: Being helpful can be harmful

In this episode, Becca and Chrissy Beltran (aka Buzzing with Ms. B) discuss how the need to be helpful in instructional coaching can have a negative impact on your success as a coach.  They clearly define the problem-solver/helper issue that instructional coaches can have and give specific tips to avoid falling into the pattern of being overly helpful. Becca and Chrissy get real with their discussion of how hard this can be with personal examples along with specific strategies to help you shift from just being helpful to making a real impact with educators.  This episode will help you reframe your thinking, know exactly what questions to ask teachers, and be confident in the steps you need to take to effectively solve problems.

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Transcript

Becca Silver: 0:00

Hello, hello hello coaches and leaders, I am so pumped to have Chrissie Beltran with me today. She is also known as buzzing with Ms. B. And I have been following her personally for a very long time. I love her material for instructional coaches. And I would love her to share with you more about what she does in the world of education.

Unknown: 0:25

All right, well, hey, Becca, and hey, coaches, I'm excited to be here today. You know, I actually provide support for instructional coaches and teachers. So I kind of am operating at two different levels where I work with teachers, and I coach them and provide PD. But I also support instructional coaches who are doing the work that you're the same exact work you're doing right now, which is, you know, PLCs, building relationships, providing professional development, it's so much work that coaches have had to figure out how to do most of the time on their own. And we believe that every teacher deserves a coach, I personally believe every coach deserves a coach, too. So I'm here to be the coach, for those of you who just didn't get one like I didn't. In the beginning of my coaching career. I provide that support through my podcast buzzing with the speed of coaching podcast, through my blog at buzzing with Miss b.com. I have 10 years of posts there it's been or maybe 11. It's been a long time. And my resources, which are now available both on my blog and buzzing, buzzing with the speed.com and my TPT store.

Becca Silver: 1:22

Amazing. Yeah, you are a resource rich human. And I am excited to like just dive a little bit into all the things that you know, instructional coaching today.

Unknown: 1:31

I'm excited to be here because I love to talk shop. It's one of my favorite things.

Becca Silver: 1:34

So I just want to kind of jump into the topic here. Why do you think the need to be helpful in instructional coaching can have a negative impact?

Unknown: 1:43

Yeah, that's a really good question. And you're asking a problem solving helper this question, okay, that is my nature. And I think a lot of coaches actually are called into coaching, because they're like, I have figured out all this great stuff, and I just want to help other people do it. So their lives will be easier, and their kids will learn better, and their teaching will be awesome. And so we come into coaching, sometimes with a frame of mind that I am going to help you I'm going to solve these problems for you. I'm just going to tell you what I did, and you're going to turn it around, and it's going to be amazing. And then we actually get into coaching. And it's like nobody wants your help. Yeah, yeah, you're like, what's wrong with you guys? I have all these awesome ideas. And and it's, it's not that it's about you, it has nothing to do usually with you as a coach. The problem is, this need to help sometimes causes us to jump over the problem into a solution. We jump over what the teacher is struggling with into a possible answer. And it can really turn people off. But whenever it comes to teachers were like, let me just tell you what to do and save you the time. But then the learning doesn't happen because they didn't go through the thinking.

Becca Silver: 2:55

Yeah, and you know, that makes me think about the Coaching Habit, Michael Bungay Stanier talks about the Drama Triangle, which, when I read this book, I was obsessed with the Drama Triangle, I thought it was revolutionary. So this is what happens. When kind of drama happens. We become one of three roles, we can become the persecutor, we can become the victim, or we can become the rescuer. And the rescuer is many times where coaches go very easily to be helpful, right? Oh, don't worry, I'll come rescue, I'll take care of it. The problem is when we come from a rescuer point of view, we automatically make the other person a victim role. So being a rescuer isn't who you are, it's a role that you take on and I actually want to read from the book because I think he says it really amazingly, the I just want to flesh out what rescuer is because it's like, man, he's, he says the core belief of rescuer is don't fight, don't worry, let me jump in and take it on and fix it. And the dynamic that's created is it's my fault or my responsibility and not yours. And the benefits of playing the role is you feel morally superior and you feel you're indispensable, and it's not completely altruistic. And part of the work that we do as coaches we want to self reflect on why we are feeling a deep need to rescue someone and essentially put them into a victim role. Right. And, you know, that makes me think about unsolicited advice. And when we give unsolicited advice that can actually diminish trust in a relationship. Someone can feel kind of put on in a way that they didn't ask it's unsolicited. They didn't ask for that.

Unknown: 4:42

That's true. And I think that's kind of something that I wanted to bring up you know, some teachers have a there's there's there certain schools of coaching, in which you basically never give them an idea. I don't subscribe. I don't I don't think that's a partnership. I don't think that's real. I don't want to go to a therapist who Oh, He just says, Well, how do you feel about that? I don't want that. I want somebody to say, Okay, this is a tool you don't have, we've exhausted what you can do at this moment. And you're saying, Help me. I don't know what to do. I think it's fine to say, here's a tool, like when it asked for, and sometimes they will come up to you and say, What would you do? Or what do you think? Yeah. So, you know, whenever it's solicited, or whenever there was a clear, bereft pneus. of experience in certain areas? I absolutely believe yes, we offer the insight, we offer the knowledge, and we offer the opportunity to learn something together with a coach as a partnership. I think that's great. But yeah, unsolicited advice has the exact opposite effect. And it does, it turns people off, it doesn't fill their bucket, they didn't come to you saying help me with something, you're saying, Oh, I can help I can fix that for you. And the implication can almost be if you were as good as me, you could have fix this yourself.

Becca Silver: 5:54

But yeah, right. And that's where that twinge of moral superiority comes in, right. We want to build up and empower professionals, right, as professionals, when have you experienced yourself in that helping role right in the being like the advice monster in the past, or even maybe recently, and you call yourself like, oh, they did not ask for this advice. This is not the way to empower this educator.

Unknown: 6:21

Yeah. I mean, it's something that I have to battle every single day of my life. I don't make anybody else feel better. I mean, she's my whole podcast, is this an opportunity for me to give advice? We find venues for the for our vices. But But yeah, I know that I have gone through this 1,000,001 times, probably, and gotten better at it over time. As a new coach, I can remember having conversations with teachers, certain specific teachers, who they were, they were offering complaints, and they had problems. And I can remember giving solutions, and then thinking, she doesn't know what that she doesn't know what I'm talking about. We're not even speaking the same language here, like I'm referring to a strategy that is not in her toolbox, and whether it'll solve the problem or not. I mean, over time, I did believe that would actually have a positive effect. But it's not going to solve the problem today. And so even if she were to try to go back to the classroom today and try to do the thing that I said, it would be completely ineffective. And then I can remember the teacher just going okay. Okay. Sure. And pretending that that was maybe a good idea. And me really, on some level, knowing that was never going to happen,

Becca Silver: 7:42

for sure. You know, in my early days, I would give the advice that works in my classroom. Exactly. This worked for me, why isn't it working for you? And then when the teacher wouldn't do it, or would kind of do it and right. In my head, I would label them as resistant right out and make up some reason why they were at fault for not doing the very good advice that I gave them. And I see this so often.

Unknown: 8:07

Yeah, it's because we've set up our response as the right answer. Yes. So then the right answer to the question, and now you're not doing it right. So something's wrong about the way you did it. Because it would be great if you just did it the right way. Like, yes.

Becca Silver: 8:23

You know, isn't that interesting? I'm gonna say something, I'm gonna I'm gonna broaden out this conversation, because this is so so I have this theory. So I think most teachers, not all, but most teachers were excellent students, they liked school. So these, these teachers that were good students, I call them the good teacher, they want to do a good job in school, and now they want to do a good job as a teacher, right? And then those excellent teachers get promoted a coach, and now they want to do a good job as a coach, right? And there's just kind of like, goodness, around goodness, you know, like, want to be good. And I think it can also have that rightness about it, right? Like, I just want to do a good job. And I have the right answer. I've been working really hard on this. And it can kind of just be in the context of it all the coaching and the teaching, right? Because I certainly know teachers that I work with, they just want to do it. Right.

Unknown: 9:18

Yeah, it's like there's a moral imperative to it. And obviously, I do believe that there is morality associated with the work that we do, you know, because we are, we are helping children build their lives, right. And helping teachers build children who can build their lives. But yeah, the idea of this is the right way to do it. If you reminds me of I don't know if you've read the children's book the good egg. No, it's really good. It's part of the series that has the bad seeds the smart cookie. And so the idea is that this good egg is like he's he's the good egg out of the dozen all the others are naughty. And then he's always spending his time trying to tell the others what they should be doing. Good egg, that's his identity. I am good. I am right I do things the right way. And so he's always like telling everybody, you know, no, don't do that. And also that he's just stressing out and he starts to get little cracks in his shell. And finally he goes away by himself. And he learns that he doesn't have to be like, everybody else doesn't have to do things like he does in order for it to be okay. And it kind of reminds me what you're talking about, we have this this idea of there's a good and right way to do things. And we're gonna do things the good and right way.

Becca Silver: 10:22

Right. Yes, I love that. Okay, so now I want to shift into what can coaches do about this right? How can they shift from this being helpful context to actually making a real impact with educators?

Unknown: 10:36

Yeah, that's a good question. I think that whenever I, I'm in conversation, and I do this on, even on my podcast, I have coaching calls, I have coaches who call in and are like, I need help with this specific area, right. And I need to ask questions to understand better, because those questions, they're kind of multipurpose, they do help me understand the situation better. So that I can can kind of clarify what's happening and see, you know, what resources they may need or what they could benefit from. But they also help the speaker, the teacher or the coach, they help this person think through what is going on, so that they can really identify the situation and the possibilities. Because we get stuck, all of us get stuck in our own little bubble. I did this I did. This is not working. It's not working to stuck, I'm stuck. I don't know what else to do. And our bubble gets smaller and smaller and smaller. And so what we can do is help them kind of identify what is happening. What is going on? What What have you already tried? Right? What Why do you think this is happening? Like, what could the cause of this be? What happens when you do this? Tell me more about this specific thing. And in digging into that, we can help them kind of uncover what's actually going on? What their thought processes around it, and what some possible changes, or different directions they could take could be, I found a lot of benefit. And just if you don't know what to say, and which is I mean, we we always feel like we know what to say. But if you don't know, ask something else. Yeah, just ask another question. I know that I think it's it's Jim Knight who says, Just tell me more. He says Tell me more all the time. Tell me more. Tell me more. I find that with certain people, with most teachers out to be more specific than that. Then tell me more. Tell me more about what the students do. Tell me more about what they're writing. Tell me more about because if certain people I say tell me more, they're like I, I gave you what I got. I'm spent I'm here for answers. Okay. Yeah. So I find digging in, tell me more about something specific, is a more helpful way for me to really understand what is going on, and what is what the situation is, so that they can verbalize it. And then sometimes it's just like all of us, we talk through something, sometimes we come up with an idea, just from the act of talking,

Becca Silver: 12:56

you listed a bunch of really helpful impacts of asking all those questions. And there's one more I wanted to add, which was making sure that we are solving the right problem. Hmm, absolutely. You know, and so it's, it's, I'd say, at least a quarter of the time when I'm working with educators and coaches, right, they come in with their complaint or their frustration, right. And, and I'm just like you, I got some answers. And I have to hold back and wait, right and ask the questions, at least a quarter of the time, what they think is the problem is actually not the problem. So if I jumped in with my solutions, I would be solving the wrong problem.

Unknown: 13:38

Absolutely. Exactly.

Becca Silver: 13:41

So I wanted to kind of wrap up with what are your thoughts about some helpful questions that coaches can ask teachers to help them to shift from simply being helpful to actually impactful?

Unknown: 13:58

Yeah, that's a really good question. And so one of the questions that I really like, and I have a few ideas on this, but the first one is something that my friend Jessica Vance, I've actually had on the podcast a couple of times to discuss inquiry. She says her favorite question is what would happen if? And I think it's a great question. Because if we can kind of train that into the thinking of teachers, you know, it puts them in the driver's seat to envision what change could look like, what it would look like if they tried out something new. And it kind of gives them the opportunity to think through possibilities. And I think another good question is, what do you want to happen? What outcome are you looking for? What are you trying to accomplish with this? And I feel it, I asked that one a lot. What are you trying to accomplish? Because sometimes, like you said earlier, we're trying to solve the wrong problem. And teachers might be trying to solve the wrong problem, and they're not even sure what they're trying to accomplish. But again, if we can keep asking this question, and get it ingrained in the way that we think about teaching, well, what am I trying to accomplish with this? Why am I choosing to spend time on it? What is my goal for this?

Becca Silver: 15:01

Yeah, and I think a related question I just thought about was why is this important to you? But especially if you're you, as a coach are sensing like, oh, yeah, I'm not entirely sure. You know, then this is the problem, right? Is this a thing we want to be spending our time focusing on?

Unknown: 15:16

Yes, absolutely. I sometimes I've asked people that question. And they hesitate. Because they haven't thought about it. And that's fine. Great. Good. Give them the time. We got to give them a think time. That's part of that's the first step. Wait, listen, yeah. And then ask questions, right? We don't sometimes whenever people ask a question, we ask people a question, and then they don't respond immediately. We feel like we have to immediately fill the space and follow up with something. But what we really want to do, because that's a helpful, right, well, I don't want you to sit here in discomfort. And in in a, you know, in this gray hazy area where you don't know the answer. Let me give you a question you do know the answer to. But that again, there's no struggle, there's no thought so there's no real problem solving. No real change is happening. Wait and give them the time. Just Just like with kids?

Becca Silver: 16:01

Yeah, exactly. This is just a great conversation to start. You know, one of the things that kind of want to wrap up our, our questions conversation with is no questions are effective if it comes from an inauthentic place? Well, that's true. We want to we want to, you know, really be curious and connected with our educators, right? When we're asking questions, we don't want to, you know, be looking at our list of protocols and, and pre written questions and kind of go down almost, you know, checking the box kind of list. We want to really, we want to do the work to embed them in our being. And, you know, and come from a place of caring and commitment to critical thinking, Yeah, I

Unknown: 16:44

think you're right, in that we can, authenticity is important. And then, you know, really expecting positive intent and positive response from teachers is important. Yeah. And bringing that with us as well as coaches.

Becca Silver: 16:57

So this is great. This has been such a fun conversation to have about being helpful and reframing this for our helpful coaches and leaders. So where can folks find you to, you know, take advantage of all your amazing coaching resources?

Unknown: 17:14

Well, thanks, you can find me@buzzfeed.com You can check out the podcast buzzing with Miss B, the coaching podcast, and you can also find me on Instagram. That's mostly that's the social media that gets most of my attention and just added a fuzzy with Miss B

Becca Silver: 17:28

follow Chrissy on Instagram. I'll put all of her links in the show notes and I just want to thank you for taking the time to share with us all the things that you know,

Unknown: 17:37

I love it. Thank you so much for having me.